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Antique C & C are reasonably easy to identify, they are often a bit "Fatter" they are often sectioned with a different colour wood. It takes a bit of courage to twist and pull, but it will often pay dividends with a prize discovery.
Modern C & C's are less easy to identify as the modern approach is to make the joint as inconspicuous as possible. But if it is modern you probably know what you are buying.
Brian
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Hi Zena and others who want to know about Cow and Calf.
A cow and Calf bobbin is a bobbin that is hollow inside, (this hollow cannot be seen from the outside) The bobbin opens up to reveal a very small bobbin attached to the part that you pulled out. Sometimes the part that pull out is the bottom part ( usually) and the small bobbin is attached to this bottom part, but there are some that pull apart from the top part of the shank in which case the small bobbin is attached to the top part of the shank.
Some writers also call it a Jack in the Box. I personally believe that this is not correct and that a Jack in the Box bobbin. A jack in the box ( in my opinion) is also a hollow bobbin, the hollow of which can not be seen from the outside, and when it is pulled apart there is a small loose bobbin inside.
Antique C&C and JitBs usually pull apart, are often made from two different colours of wood. Modern versions fo these are less easy to discern as they often screw apart and the join is less obvious. Whilst I have not seen an antique screw apart, I am given to understand that there are those that screw apart.
David Springett calls a Jack in the Box, a "Secret Bobbin"
The reason that I keep saying that the hollow is not visable from the outside is so that the "hollow" church window bobbins are not confused with these two types.
Incidentally there is much confusion about the nomenclature of these bobbins but more particularly the Church Window genre.
I have written in detail about church windows. It is far too long for this forum. Probably rather long to email ( at least 6 pages , perhaps 8, I can't remeber) But if anyone is interested in clrifying the nomenclature (church Windows) and entering into discussion on this with me or via lace chat / digest I would be more than delighted to try and email it or post it to you.
Brian
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Some time ago, I was given a pair of cow-and-calf bobbins (one of which had lost its calf), but have never used them: all my Midlands-type bobbins are spangled, and I can't see how you could spangle a cow-and-calf - wouldn't the spangle pull the bobbin apart all the time? (There is a hole for a spangle drilled through the bobbin.)
If you can't spangle it, then it would be a different weight to all the other bobbins being used, wouldn't it...
Erica
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We at Biggins believe a Jack in the box to be the one were the small bobbin is attached to the bottom bead of the bobbin . A cow and calf can always be tipped out onto your hand and bye the way is harder to make ! Bye for now
Vivienne
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Here we go. I know there is confusion about this. How are we going to sort it out? I am not saying that I am right and you are wrong, but re-emphasizing that there is a difference in opinions.
Brian
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Firstly I am delighted that issue has been raised in chat. We in the lace fraternity need to get some of these things sorted out, and as in my workplace I believed that problem solving was best done by discussion and I think we can do this over the net. If we come to conclusions then I suggest that we arrange to write to our respective Journals to bring the wider lace fraternity into the discussion.
I would like to start the ball rolling by saying that David Springett, who we must accept as our fraternity's guru on bobbins ( I again am not saying that he is right) certainly believes that a Cow and Calf had the bobbin firmly attached to the bobbin tail end. [Turning Lace Bobbins. page 46 ff and accompanied by diagrams.]
He is silent on the "jack in the Box" and calls ( what I call a Jack in the Box) a "secret Bobbin". Could it be that he too is not quite sure what the true definition of a Jack in the Box is?
How I wish that David and Christine would join the net. When I talked to them they were quite firmly against it but I did hear that they might be wavering!
(Whiting) Old Time Tools and Toys of Needlework. Describes Cow and Calf and Mother in Babe bobbins as having "miniature bobbins lying inside the windows of real bobbins." (p220).
(Huetson) "… Lace and Bobbins. adds to our confusion while talking about Church Window bobbins says ...or BABY BOBBIN. These are almost always made of wood of two contrasting colours but as distinct from the "spliced," the join in this case is a dowel joint. The part of the shank into which this dowel fits is made hollow and in this hollow space, hidden from view, there is a miniature bobbin, the baby. A tight fit keeps the joint together, which however can be pulled apart to release the baby. If one shakes one of these near ones' ear the baby can be heard rattling about inside." He then states that he prefers the term Church Window. (p 118) --
Bullock "Lace and Lace Making", has a picture of a Cow and Calf on page 82. No written description that I can find. It has the Bobbin attached to the tail end.
Freeman "Pillow lace in the East Midlands. p 33 has a bet each way. He says that C in C and J in the B are same either having a loose or a fixed bobbin.
Wright. The Romance of the Lace pillow joins Freeman ( or probably the other way around) p 127 and has a bet each way!
Luton Museum "The Little bobbin book" p 11 has an each way bet.
Geoffrey Hopewell. Pillow Lace and Bobbins. p21 Each way bet.
Ok. So here is the confusion. My personal belief is that most writers following Wright copied Wright without critical examination or further research. It is most marked when you collect the associated bibliography on lace bobbins. I deed this "uncritical copying" could also be leveled at a lot of lace history books.
I believe that we should firstly believe the sources that are closest to the historical phase of the issue under discussion. I.e. Wright. But I do not believe that we should live with confusion just for historical accuracy. We should agree amongst ourselves on a nomenclature that we will use whilst accepting that there are historical precedents which could challenge our eventual decision.
My decision to differentiate between the two is purely whimsical and based on the fact that a J itB jumps out of its box unexpectedly and that a cow delivers her calf in a more orderly fashion. ( now you can argue both ways on that!!)
Brian
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My beautiful cow and calf cannot be tipped out. The bobbin is a beautiful chestnut coloured Eucalyptus fibrosa (iron bark gum) which has two windows hollowed out of the sides of the shaft. Inside can be viewed the baby bobbin which is cleverly turned in a pale bone coloured Melaleuca (paper bark). It is absolutely impossible to see (with the naked eye) how the baby was inserted, although the turner did show me.
David Collyer
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The cow and calf that I saw was firmly attached--you really had to yank it out. There must be a bit of a slight bend to the wood inside which makes that little click to reattach.
Heathere Cericola
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I am getting confused. I thought that bobbins that contain babies that can not be removed where called "Mother and Babe" or "Mother in Babe" bobbins, rather than a Calf and Cow. I also own a grandmother bobbin that has a bobbin within a bobbin within a bobbin. I have heard that a woman who has not had children should not have mother and babe bobbins on her pillow if she wants to one day have children. I have three young children so I think that I don't need to be concerned with that supersition. If I use my grandmother bobbin will I be jinxing myself and never become a grandmother?
Joanna Wallace
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The books that I have seen (don't remember the authors or titles) showed the calf as a miniature bobbin that was loose inside the cow and could be removed. If you look at real life once the calf is born it is no longer attached to the cow (except at feeding time). All the Jack-in-the-boxes I have ever seen were always still attached to the box when they were out.
Jim Stavast
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Well, that makes sense, can you do some flicking through the pages of your books to see if you can find the sources of the quotes. I am always looking for entries to go into my "Bobbin bibliography".
What I think would be a most valuable quote would be a pre Wright description of these two bobbins. Do you think that the books were old? i.e. pre 1900 say?
Brian
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I own a Cow-and-calf bobbin which I have had for about two years now. It is a modern one designed by Stuart Johnson, and it is not only spangled, it is in almost constant use. I have had no problem whatsoever with it. Not only that, but it is often with me on demonstrations where it is always a big hit with children.
In the long run, it may have to be retired if the calf is pulled out too many times and becomes loose, but that will be a long way off. While it comes apart smoothly, it is also very firm.
Sarah MacDonald
Alameda, California, USA
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I can well understand your confusion! I would humbly suggest that at this time we confine out chat to the Cow and Calf and the Jack in the Box confusion, as when we come to the "church Window" genre we can get equally confused. Perhaps at this time we could agree that the two bobbin names that we are trying to sort out are hollow but hollow in a manner that can not be detected from the outside as opposed to the church window group where you can see the hollow and the inserts without pulling it apart.
It appears from my study that mother in babes and grandmothers fall fairly clearly into the group that you can see the inserts through "windows" in the bobbin. Therefore from where you stand you appear to use the correct words for describing them.
If other members are willing we can move on to church windows after we have exhausted our discussion on C&C and JitB.
Brian
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The new book "Success to the Lace Pillow" by Christine and David Springett shows a picture of the cow and calf bobbin. The calf is attached to the tail of the bobbin, and that section pulls out. Their example does have a hole drilled in it, but no spangle attached. I imagine the bottom fits very tightly, and therefore a spangle would not make the bobbin come apart.
I am more familiar with what is called by them a jack in the box. This is a bobbin belonging to the type of Midlands bobbins called thumpers. They are short and somewhat fat bobbins without spangles that were originally used in the southern part of the county of Buckinghamshire. Later on, some workers did drill holes and spangle the bobbins so today you can find some with spangles. The jack in the box comes apart midway down the bottom part to reveal a hollow in the top section which should contain the small bobbin. This little thing is often missing in bobbins found today. Some people use the term cow and calf and jack in the box interchangeably. Whichever bobbin our Arachne friend found, she was lucky to have her bobbin complete. It is not at all unusual to have a bobbin and not know that it does come apart because the pieces should fit very tightly.
BTW, these thumpers are the favorites of Pam Nottingham. She has a beautiful collection of them. She gave several of hers to the Springetts to copy, and they sell a variety of this shape but, as far as I know, none of them come apart.
Elaine Merritt
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I thought that I would let you know that lace chat is currently having a discussion on the confusion explained in the title.
It has been rather technical and has advanced to the position that:
a. The various historical authors mostly say the names cane be used interchangeably.
b. The historical writers have all copied Wright and not doing their own research
c. Huetson has made a mistake in his description of Church window bobbins and baby bobbins.( around p 117/118)
d. The need for "earlier than Wright" bobbin descriptions
e. Various other asides of some value.
All this to decide whether a Cow in/ and Calf and the Jack in the Box are indeed different, or if one or the other has a loose bobbin inside it or a bobbin that is fixed to the end of the section that you pull out of the shaft.
Can someone ask David Springett his opinion and pass it on to us. I find it very interesting to note that he calls a cow and calf, the bobbin with a fixed baby bobbin on the end, but says nothing about the JitB rather calling the bobbin that has a loose bobbin in the shaft the "secret bobbin" Does he know something we do not know?
My two bobs worth is that I think the C&C has the bobbin fixed to the end of the pull out section and the JitB has a loose bobbin inside it.
Would any of you like to offer your opinion or even better come up with some pre 1900 bobbin descriptions.
Brian
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Hi, I think you have it the wrong way round , as a previous person said " a calf leaves the cow , a jack in the box stays firmly attached to the box." I think that is the best explanation put forward and one I can live with . Bye for now.
Vivienne.
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Your contribution re the "thumper" JitB is most interesting. I had certainly never thought of this as a possible criteria for distinguishing between the two names that we are discussing. I have had a bit of time to look up the illustrations in historical books of these bobbins and find that of the two that are different ( Most writers on bobbins use the same illustrations from the Luton museum) both of the "loose babe" bobbins are of the "thumper" variety, though I have to say that the authors are using different names for them.
Huetson ( p159)calls it a mother and babe! ( see my other communication about Huetson) and Bullock (p 82) and others who use this illustration have and East Midlands type spangles fixed baby bobbin and Midlands "Thumper" bobbin with a loose babe, and calls them both cow in calf.
I spent three days studying the reserve collection of bobbins at the Luton museum and discovered one "thumper" type bobbin that had an empty shank, which presumably had a loose bobbin in it at some time.
When we move on to the Bedford museums public display they show only an East midlands type bobbin with a fixed babe and call it a cow and calf.
My own Fixed babe bobbin is an east midland type too.
All these bobbins are spangled.
Of the "thumper type" loose babe two of them have a neck end opening and one a tail end opening. All the east midlands fixed babes have a tail end opening.
This exhausts my current resources in following Elaines "Thumper" lead.
May I ask that those of you who have collections of Antique bobbins ( I think it is important to confine this to antique bobbins) look at your collection and pass on the descriptions of your C&C or JitB bobbins. i.e. Are your fixed babes in "Slimmish" East Midlands type bobbins and your loose babe bobbins in "Fatter, thumper" type bobbins, or variations on that theme?
What I am thinking is that if we can show that extant antique bobbins follow the "Thumper loose babe and East Midland fixed babe" pattern, we will have made a contribution to the knowledge of our bobbins. (Though not solved the problem of the names)
But perhaps people like Elaine and Pam knew this all along and it is only newbies like myself who did not know this?
Brian
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The discussion on "chat" re the above controversy has taken a little twist following an observation by Elaine Merrit.
She offered us a clue that the JitB might be all of the Midlands "Thumper" type i.e. fatter and somewhat pear or Drop shape. I looked up the illustrations that I have in my books and the photos I have from Luton and Bedford museums and it appears that there may be some justification for thinking that those antique bobbins that have a loose bobbin inside them (Which is not visible from out side of the bobbin.e. you have to pull them apart to reveal their contents) may all be ( or mostly) of the "Thumper" type and those that similarly have a fixed babe inside them are all of the Slimmer East Midland type.
My request is that those of you that have antique bobbins of this nature please have a look at them and tell us what you have.
If we find that extant bobbins of these types do follow the pattern of "East midland - fixed babes and Thumpers -loose babes." we will have made a contribution to the knowledge of our bobbins ( But not yet solved the problem of the names.!)
Will you do that for us please?
Brian
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Mine are spangled. But then as I said before, they are not intended to come apart. I just love using them and already the eucalyptus is getting a lovely "used" stain.
David Downunder
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I think we have almost done this to death except for the "Thumper" thread.
Throughout this entire thread I've been wondering:
If we can record the names that different bobbins were traditionally called, and the same bobbin was called two different things depending on who was doing the talking, why must we name and categorize bobbins into strict groups?
Historically it looks as though we will have to accept that they can be called by either name until we get some new research done. Meanwhile here are a few alternatives that have emerged should our lace community wish to accept some modern conventions to help sort out the confusion.
Cow and Calf Alternatives.
1. A difference between the Thumper and the East Midlands terminology. I.e. The thumper is the Jack in the Box. ( we await more feed back on this). I have a Jack in the Box that was labeled as such before the turn of the century, but lo and behold, it's a spangled east midlands.
2. Cow IN calf equals fixed babe; cow AND calf equals loose babe. I think this difference is merely due to modern spelling conventions. One lacer in 1800 may have said Cow n Calf and be construed to say BOTH Cow AND Calf & Cow IN Calf. Depending on who heard the speaker, and who wrote it down.
3. If the part that opens is the top part it is a Jack in the Box; if it opens from the tail it is a cow and/in calf. My Jack in the Box, opens on the bottom, the "jack" springs out.
None of the above, except (perhaps) for the first alternative, have much chance of being confirmed historically. I'd like to put forth the idea that we, as people removed from the tradition, cannot FORCE different bobbins to be known by the names we decide to call them. We can have loose rules, for example - babes that are inside the bobbin with no window can be called Jack in the Box, Cow & Calf or Cow in Calf. There will always be questions, might it not be better to acknowledge these differences than to discard them? For example "Natalie has a nice Cow and Calf bobbin. (These special bobbins are sometimes known as a Cow in calf or Jack in the Box.)"
Alternative two does not address the Jack in the Box issue.
Alternative three is based on the "Lid" being the top of the Jacks "box", and the surprise can either jump out freely (the loose babe) or pop up and just look at you (the fixed babe).
If ever the third alternative were used, the description would be expressed something like the following:
A Midlands thumper type Jack in the Box with fixed babe. Or, an East Midlands type Jack in the Box with a loose bobbin. The opposites would be, an East Midland type cow and/in calf bobbin, using the alternative two "placental" convention.
I am suggesting that we await feedback on the "thumper" direction and meantime write to our respective Lace journals to get feedback from the wider lace community. If you wish I will write the letter if you will supply me with your journals e-mail address or snail mail address. I have the Australian and the English journal addresses
Brian. BTW, if anyone wants to write to me or give my snail mail address to anyone it is:
Brian Lemin
11/28 Deaves Rd.
Cooranbong
NSW. 2265
Australia.
I am always happy to talk bobbins. Other interests are Nursery Rhymes Mother Goose) Spinning Tops, Early musical instruments, Wooden needle work tools and accessories, Sea shanties. I am just completing an historical research based Masters thesis on Australian Nursing Ethics ( and I wonder why I am always flat out!)
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